Various news stories with video.
http://www.wgntv.com/evening_news
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=6644997
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/carriage.horse.rescue.2.928664.html
Horses Caught in Carriage Companies' Crunch as posted at http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/horse-carriage-.html#2bfnHY6261BsUZkWnkB
Chicago police crews converged on a property in the West Town neighborhood on Friday as part of an investigation into the alleged neglect of several horses by a carriage operator.
The investigation focuses on five to seven horses found in a vacant field inside a tent at 1501 N. Magnolia Ave., according to police News Affairs Officer Laura Kubiak.
The tent had a tarp over it that likely offered little protection in the brutal cold, CBS2chicago.com reported.
The stable is operated by J.C. Cutter, which told NBC Chicago in October, "We love our work and our horses. The horses are thoroughly examined every three months by a veterinarian."
She did not know what time the horses were discovered, but said police and representatives of three animal protection agencies were at the scene late Friday morning.
Rescue crews had to get through a gate that was chained shut and blocking access, according to CBS2 Chicago.
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27 comments:
Hi Lori! I know you are gloating over this news...I have noticed that throughout your blog smear campaign, you fail to mention that you, too, own a carriage company. Do your followers know this? Perhaps they should. You know, being a fellow horseperson, that the horses removed from JC were in fine health and were being taken care of. Keep in mind that if AC can do this when the horses were taken care of, your horse(s) could also be seized under false pretenses. I'm sure Rosenthal won't stop at just one company. Good luck to you and Gold Coast!
Believe it or not, despite our differences, I didn't gloat today and felt a sense of sadness for your loss. I'm not sure who you think I lead or follow, but I do neither. Honestly, I want little to do with the carriage industry as I embark on the things I really want in my life.
As of two days ago, I understand that you believe I am exposedtruths and control this blog. I am not exposedtruths. I have no reason to be exposedtruths. Yes, I'm a carriage company owner, sometimes driver, and believe working a horse is not abuse. I'm pro-carriage and pro-horse. It's true that I follow this blog as does every other carriage person, horse person, non-horse person, and nutso stupid activist, but I didn't create it nor do I manage it.
You act as if I took your horses. I didn't take them. It was Animal Control, Consumer Services, and any other department involved that made that decision. I didn't write the citations, take you to court, make you jump through hoops, etc. It was ACC and CS who pulled the strings, not me. I didn't show up with a trailer this morning and load up your horses. The city is responsible for that. You allowed them to take your horses by not being vigilant with stable management nor attempting to find suitable stabling over the past few months. Even when you knew you were under the city's microscope you didn't attempt to comply with their rules. And yes, those of us who remain are at the mercy of these city departments and their whims.
Stop blaming me for all your problems.
JC Cutters was warned, time and time again to use better husbandry in taking care of their animals. They were cited over and over again. Their license was revoked and all appeals in DOAH court denied. ACC inspectors, and Mark Rosenthal himself suggested that JC stable these horses elsewhere until they get their building rebuilt...not to put them in a tent, where they are unsupervised, stressed, standing in a foot of horse crap, chewing their stalls out of stress....with no water, silage covered in manure, etc...
And that started last May/June....and nothing has been improved. NOTHING! So yeah, the animals are in okay health...but the cruelty is the way they are being housed. Do you think it is healthy for any animal to be housed in such a manner, for months at a time? I'm sorry, but you cannot leave ANY animal, BY LAW, in cages/stalls/runs that are covered in manure, with frozen, flithy water to drink, with their food supply covered in crap. Regardless if it is a dog, cat, pig, monkey, or a horse. The Humane Care for Animals Act calls this cruel treatment. You got busted JC....so defend this in court, not on a blog.
Also, it is interesting to note that all of the other operators are not being targeted by the city. I wonder why.....could it be that they are operating LEGALLY???
How much more of a wake-up call do you need????
I am sick of hearing that the City has some kind of dark agenda in place. They don't. That is a stupid, rediculous arguement! The carriage operators bring DOLLARS DOWNTOWN! Hmm, city is strapped for cash, so they want to remove a revenue producing tourist attraction? I really wish people would think before they speak...
Interesting that the man who helped the police Animal Crimes Unit to initate the raid, Rosenthal, has never served a day as an animal control officer, and has to ask other people what the laws are, because he simply does not know them....also interesting that this is the man who was at the helm as Curator of Mammals at Lincoln Park Zoo when the elephants died.....
Just some food for thought.
Lori, do not forget the that horse world is small and your niche is even smaller. People talk...and that's how it's known that ET is you. Posting under an second screen name doesn't mean you aren't ET.
On the contrary, I am not the manager of JC Cutters. Check the IP address...you'll see it comes from many miles from the city.
I'm sure it's easier for a buyer to swallow if they are buying a business with little competition because you have helped erase it.
Anonymous (1), it is obvious you have no horse experience. The way the horses were housed was not "cruel". The conditions more than complied with state law. Beyond that, HAHS, HARPS and Dept. of Ag had been on the property and felt that while the shelter may not be *ideal* it was more than adequate to meet the horses needs. You also show your ignorance by saying the "silage" was covered in crap. Horses don't eat silage, they eat hay...big difference. May seem small to you, but to an experienced horse person, you have just proven that you do not have experience in horses, only that you are puppeting what you've read on the activist sites. Thirdly, if you are going to claim the horses were standing in a foot of manure, you better have hard evidence to back that up...not just what you've read somewhere. Please post pictures and provide a link to such photos to substantiate your claim.
The City agreed that the tent was suitable for temporary shelter and JC was to submit plans down the road for something more permanent. JC complied with what the court, AND AC agreed to. Funny how after Rosenthal was reported for misconduct of a city employee that he went on a rampage targeting JC.
And the argument of the carriages bringing in revenue and not wanting it to go away because of money doesn't hold water. Otherwise the City wouldn't have decided that retired licenses couldn't be renewed, nor would they have tried to put the lottery in place. Secondly, the overall money generated from the taxes and fees is very little. The lucrative money for the City on the carriages is the tickets the businesses are issued, sometimes on trumped up charges.
JC will be defending herself and her business in court.
However, as a horse person, I am outraged at the injustice this site has helped instigate. 6 horses in good health were taken from an owner while a herd of many more horses down south were ignored. The horses down south are true skeletons, and one horse was literally FROZEN to the ground because of lack to strength to get up from laying down. The owner of the herd is still in possession of them. I am outraged at the trouble people like those that run and support this blog have caused horse owners who are honest, caring, and excellent horse people. How would you like if I seized your vehicle because I felt you didn't give it the right octane gas, didn't wash it enough, and kept it in a garage with a dirt floor instead of a polished concrete one? I'm tired of "animal rights activists" anthropomorphizing horses and demanding they share the same luxuries as humans, which again are not necessities.
I didn't realize freedom was a luxury.
Can someone explain to me why the tent was considered "inadequate shelter" but the horses are being held by Rosenthal at a facility where they are on pasture board only?
More than anything else right now those horses need pasture time since they haven't been turned out in months for extended time spans. I bet those horses are jumping for joy that they are in a pasture where the caretakers feed and water at regular intervals and they are not forced to sleep in their own waste day after day. Answer my question, " Why did you let the conditions deteriorate to this level?". The public doesn't understand why anyone would let it get this bad. Even if the horses weights were okay its no excuse to house horses like this. A horse needs so much more than that. I admit I'm ignorant about the city's departments expertise or experience but I know what good horse care is.
Again, you've decided to skirt around an answer to a question with an illogical argument.
So, it's ok that they went to "inadequate shelter" to no shelter because they need the pasture time? Hypocritical, anyone?
I doubt the horses are jumping for joy as they were fed and watered at regular intervals in the City, too. Makes no difference to them. Perhaps they were happy to be fed when they got there since Rosenthal decided to remove them from their stalls while they were EATING THEIR BREAKFAST.
Once again, Anonymous, you need to stop anthropomorphizing horses and thinking they have separate bathroom facilites from their sleeping quarters as humans do. Are you saying that millions of horses kept in stalls are mistreated? Of course there was poop in the stalls! Do you have any idea how much a horse defecates in a day? Of course you don't, you know nothing about them! You'd be hard pressed to find a barn that cleans their stalls more than once a day. If you walk into any barn in the country before morning chores are done the stalls look trashed. It's part of having an animal.
As far as turnout time, perhaps you should look at the practices in Europe where there is no room for horses to be turned out. Their daily exercise comes from working, as with the carriage horses.
Conditions were not deteriorated. Conditions were MORE than adequate. The trash bags full of manure proves that stalls were cleaned regularly. The stall waste was removed from the stall and contained. The fact that disposal service had to be discontinued was the furthest "deterioration" went. JC was trying to come up with a method to have the bags moved outside of the City to an area where it could be disposed of without the exorbitant fees waste companies charge. This would mean taking it to a farm.
JC did not do anything different than any other barn owner does. Just because YOU don't agree with it as living conditions suitable for your anthropomorphizations doesn't mean that the horses were mistreated.
Get a clue, then come back and talk to me.
By the way, I own a premium 57 stall boarding facility on the outskirts of the city and know what a clean stall looks like. Personally I have never known any "horseperson" whose standard of care is as low as yours and defends it with such absurd ideas of how horses should live. If I were you I sure wouldn't get my hopes up too much with other horse owners siding with you. Being in the horse business I hear a lot of talk from other stable owners, trainers, riders and I can tell you they are hoping you never get those horses back.
Anonymous, stop lying...it's not helping you. Horse owners siding with JC...start with checking out Midwest Horse.com, Illinois Horse.com, Fugly Horse of the Day...
Again, when you get a clue, then come back and talk.
Premium 57 stall facility? Name it.
Also, it is interesting to note that all of the other operators are not being targeted by the city. I wonder why.....could it be that they are operating LEGALLY???
Not for long, if ADL gets their wish. They plan to get horse-drawn carriages banned completely from Chicao, NYC, and elsewhere. Take a look at Chicago ADL's website to read up on thier "Campaign to Ban Horse-Drawn carriages" agenda.
http://chicago.animaldefense.info/forum/
P.s...the above was posted by a another anonymous (me)poster in response to the first anonymous's statement in bold.
This is better link if anyone is interested in ADL Chicago's campaign to ban tv carriage industry in Chicago. We are not workin on any campaigns beyond Chicago.
Chicago.animaldefense.info/campaigns/hdc.php
Michele, Melissa and Elizabeth
You are all batshit crazy and should never ever touch a horse again. Crazy is as crazy does and none of you see the problem because you all think alike. You were made for each other. The city wasn't targeting you just because you are a carriage company. No other companies had been "targeted" as you claim. They paid attention to you because of the lousy conditions you kept your horses in. And while they might not have been too underweight, chances are that in time it would have been worse. You are the worst kind of people because you live in a bubble and only allow other crazies in to make yourself look/feel better.
These horses certainly did not fit the definition of abused or neglected animals.
Horses are not humans, horses are designed to grow a long winter coat and live outside in frigid temperatures.
All warm-blooded creatures can tolerate a broad range of temperatures, but each species has a natural comfort zone that reflects the climate in which it evolved. Biologists call this the 'energy-neutral range', meaning that within those limits - assuming dry, windless weather conditions - the animal need expend no extra energy to maintain normal body temperature.
Because our ancestors arose in central Africa, where natural selection favored those best suited to warm temperatures, our energy-neutral range is about 50 to 85 degrees Fahrenheit. Horses, on the other hand, evolved in elevated, northerly climes, where extreme cold presented an entirely different set of survival challenges. Their energy-neutral range is about 15 to 60 degrees (-10 to 15 degrees celsius). No wonder your horse relishes weather that seems frigid to you. The human body is built to dissipate heat, while the horse is constructed to produce and maintain it. It's all a matter of physical adaptation.
Several bodily adaptations allow the horse to 'run hot' in cold environments. First, there's his massive digestive tract, which prodesses a mostly fibrous diet and generates a huge amount of heat (far more than the human digestive process produces). In addition, the horse - like moose, elk and other large, cold-adapted ungulates - has a comparatively thick, blocky body that retains heat for a long period. (Think of the hot baked potatoes mothers once slipped into their children's coat pockets to keep them warm. The human frame is slender, more like a quick-cooling french fry than a whole potato).
Even the extremities of the horse are marvelously adapted for cold. Because his legs have proportionally less muscle than ours, the cells in his legs require less blood circulation for maintenance and consequently lose less heat. This lower metabolic need also means that a horse's legs have no problem with the reduced cellular activity brought on by cold. While our toes are among the first appendages to succomb to frostbite, adult horses almost never get frozen feet.
Consider also the blunt equine muzzle, so richly supplied with blood that it can whitstand bitter cold without freezing. (By contrast, the angular human nose is all too vulnerable to frostbite). And then there are the horse's long nasal passages, where equally blood-rich bone spiral called turbinates warm the frigid air before it can reach the lungs and potentially cool the body core. Our own noses are designed more to filter air than to warm it.
Acclimation: on the spot cure for chill
Obviously, your horse is much better equipped to deal with cold than you are. But that doesn't mean he's completely impervious to winter weather. Several heat-robbing factors can act against him when the mercury drops.
Radiation - the transfer of heat from the body to surrounding cold air.
Conduction - direct contact with cold substances (such as snow, ice, mud or water) that causes heat to be wicked away from the skin. The impact of conduction on body temperature is significant, as researcher Paul Siple found back in 1939, when he showed that, at 0 degrees Fahrenheit (-17c), a 40 mph wind produced a cooling effect on the humane body equivalent to a temperature of minus 55 (-48c). (Humans shed heat much more easily than horses, however, so the effect on our four-legged friends may not be as great).
Convection - the action of wind or cold drafts to hasten radiation cooling.
Normal heat shedding - heat loss incurred through bodily functions, such as urination, defecation or respiration.
Any of these factors can rob your horse of body heat, leaving him in danger of hypothermia (subnormal temperature of the body). Of course, he's got his own solutions for cold: using his rump as a wind block, huddling with other horses to conserve heat, seeking shelter or running to boost his metabolism.
But if these behavioural responses fail, he is also equipped with emergency heat-generating mechanisms, called acclimation responses, to cope with the threat.
Acclimation responses work at two levels: at the surface of the body and at the core. Imagine, for example, that an icy wind begins to blow across the pasture. Your horse hunkers down with his back to the blast, but before long he is losing heat faster than his body can generate it. That's when the acclimation responses kick in.
Blood vessels in the skin constrict, and hair shafts stand on end (piloerection). After a while, the wind grows stronger, and he begins to shiver. All of these mechanisms serve to raise your horse's body temperature. The extent of the response is dependent on the intensity, duration and location of the chilly stimulus. A brief blast of wind may result in only a quick surface heating response, but if the cold persists, acclimation mechanisms in the core of his body swing into action, boosting your horse's metabolic rate and thus his body temperature.
Both levels of acclimation response operate through a complex, interactive system of feedback loops that connect the brain, the central nervous system and the adrenal glands. When body temperature falls, cold-sensing nerve cells throughout the horse's body fire warnings to one or more central heat-regulating hubs in the spinal cord and brain. (Colder than normal passing blood flow may also trigger nerve-cell 'thermostats' within the thermoregulatory centers themselves).
The chief command center for thermoregulation is thought to be the hypothalamus, a small but life-critical structure deep in the base of the brain, although the spinal cord or another region of the brain geared to react to falling temperatures may also be involved.
After comparing incoming temperature information to the body's energy-neutral range, the command centers issue order, by either electrical or chemical means, to begin emergency heating efforts:
Shivering.
When the body perceives a serious drop in temperature, the central nervous system commands motor neurons in each major muscle group to set off a single, vigorous contraction. But almost instantaneously, tension-sensing proprioceptive nerves perceive the muscle as too tense and fire a command to halt the contraction. As the muscle relaxes, the proprioceptive nerves stop firing, allowing the muscle to contract again.
This rapid-fire tensing and relaxing of heavy muscle groups - the phenomenon we call shivering - quickly sends metabolism soaring. The cycle occurs incredibly fast; a shivering muscle may contract 10 to 20 times per second.
With their enormous blocks of muscle, horses are superb shiverers; they appear to shiver more comfortably and readily than do humans. And since nearly all the muscle action is converted to heat, shivering is a highly effective heating device (in man, it is believe to increase metabolic rate eightfold). But the warming comes at a huge cost to energy stores, so it is only a short-term remedy.
Countercurrent heat exchange.
The uppermost layers of a horse's skin are suffused with veins that normally circulate the blood close to the outer air before returning it to the lungs. In hot weather, the resulting heat radiation is desirable, but under frigid conditions, the heat loss could be dangerous. To minimize surface radiation in the cold, the horse's venous blood takes a detour. Orders from the thermoregulatory centers blood block flow into veins close to the cool skin surface and reroute it into vessels called venae comitantes, which run deep under the skin, right next to arteries. The result: blood returning to the heart and lungs is warmed by the outgoing (countercurrent) arteries, preventing cold blood from penetrating the body core.
Piloerection.
Triggered by contraction of the smooth muscle attached to the lowest point of each hair follicle, the haircoat straightens up so it 'stands on end'. This creates a larger insulating pocket of air between the skin surface and the cold cruel world.
Circulation shunts.
Protection of extremities is another strategy by which the horse fends off cold temperatures. For example, although the horse's body lacks a mechanism for increasing blood flow to the feet, it has developed a system to prevent them from freezing.
What little warming blood flow reaches the foot is normally diffused (and thereby cooled) in the capillaries that serve the foot cell's limited metabolic needs. When the body's thermoregulators get a message that the feet are too cold, direct shunts open up in the feet so that blood flows from the smallest arteries directly into larger veins, called venules, without passing through the capillaries. After the feet have warmed sufficiently, the shunts close again to restore nutritive capillary flow. Shunts are also used in the tail and ears. Another means of warming critical exposed areas, such as the muzzle, is to open more subsurface blood vessels to compensate for surface losses.
Stallions have an additional vulnerable 'extremity', the scrotum. Normally exposed so it can maintain a slightly lower operating temperature for optimum fertility, this nearly hairless organ is protected against winter weather by a muscle called the dartos, which 'puckers' the scrotum up against the body under cold conditions.
Heightened metabolism.
As cold continues to stress the body, the thermoregulatory centers turn their attention to generating more internal heat, sending out messages to the adrenal glands to boost core metabolism.
Nerve impulses signal the adrenal medulla to release epinephrine and norepinephrine, neurotransmitters that raise blood pressure and heart rate and increase metabolism by stimulating the release of free fatty acids and the breakdown of glycogen. At the same time, the hypothalamus spurs its adjudant, the pituitary gland, into action, ordering the release of large amounts of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) into the bloodstream.
Arriving in the adrenal cortex, ACTH triggers the production of cortisol, a steroid that increases the body's heatgenerating metabolism of fat, carbohydrates and protein. The result: a warmer, happier horse.
Acclimatization: gearing up for winter
Short-term measures can warm a horse through a cold snap, but because many acclimation responses - especially the rapid increases in metabolism - tend to drain energy stores, they can't be sustained for a whole season. To avoid exhausting himself in an effort to keep warm, the horse needs an energy-efficient means of generating and retaining heat over long periods of time. At the same time, whatever process prepares him to whitstand colds has to be reversible when the warm weather returns. Fortunately, there is such a mechanism of seasonal adjustment to temperature change: it's called acclimatization.
The horse's acclimatization for cold actually begins long before winter. Just after the summer solstice (around June 22), receptor's in the horse's eyes - and possibly elsewhere in the body - detect the incremental shortening of daylight and relay the information to the pineal body, a primordial organ in the brain. (Even blind horses experience acclimatization changes, suggesting that other receptor points may be modulated through the pineal body).
These subtle hints of coming winter trigger the release of hormones that shift the haircoat from its resting phase into a growing phase. Inside the follicles that house the horse's thin, short summer hairs, thick, long winter hairs begin to grow, pushing the summer hairs ahead of them. If you look closely at your horse, you can see them peeking out in late August. By late September or early October, the winter hairs begin to evict the copious summer hairs from the follicles. The result is shedding.
During the fall, ambient (surrounding air) temperature determines how long and thick the horse's winter haircoat grows. If he is exposed only to warm air - as occurs in southern climes, or when he is blanketed or kept continuously in a warm barn - his winter coat will grow in only slightly heavier than his summer coat. On the other hand, if he's exposed to extreme cold during this time, his coat will be correspondingly thick and long.
Ambient temperature continues to influence the weight of the coat until the winter solstice (around December 22), after which date the lengthening daylight hours trigger the first summer hairs to begin growing in the follicle, and the winter pelt can no longer adjust to climate changes.
Your horse's winter coat puts your best winterwear to shame. Its longe, dense, fine 'pile' is interspersed with longer, bristle-like 'guard' hairs that prop up his fur, creating loft within a thick layer of body-warmed, still air next to his skin and greatly reducing cooling from radiation, convection and conduction. The downward tilt of his hairs deflects falling raindrops and snowflakes before they reach the skin - where they would otherwise conduct huge amounts of heat from the body - and directs them to the hair tips, from which they fall harmlessly to the ground. That's why your horse's skin often remains dry even in moderate rain or heavy snowfall.
And, finally, the thick haircoat makes an excellent windbreaker.
As the temperature drops, the horse's appetite (and hence his caloric consumption) increases, boosting heat-generating digestion and metabolism.
Mother Nature helps the progress along by ensuring that the grazing horse puts on a few pounds in the fall. Among feral horses, this weight gain comes primarily from increased consumption of dry matter as grass dries out, but it may be boosted by the serendipitous discovery of such fattening goodies as wild rye and wild oats, which go to seed as winter approaches. The extra fat layer requires little energy to sustain, has few heat-radiating cappilaries within it and insulates well.
On the cellular level, heat-generating metabolism is also nudged up for the winter, though in a far less dramatic and taxing manner than occurs with the short-term metabolic changes of acclimation. As cold sets in for the long term, the hypothalamus signals the pituitary to release thyrotropin or thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH). Reaching the thyroid gland in the neck, TSH triggers the release of thyroid hormones that slowly boost metabolism for the long haul.
The impact of all these changes is a marvel of thermoregulation. Efficiently generating more heat while increasing his layers of insulation, the acclimatized horse has greatly improved his ability to tolerate cold. It will take a really severe cold spell to force him to resort to fuelburning, emergency warming responses like shivering. The acclimatized horse is so ideally suited to the frozen tundra that - given food, unfrozen water and minimal shelter - he can thrive in temperatures as low as minus 40 .
Brave the outdoors on a frigid day, and, as you flap your arms and stomp your feet in a silly-looking effort to keep warm, you may question your decision to leave your horse in the elements. You needn't worry. Your horse is a cold-weather marvel, whose aptitude for staying cozy in breath-stopping temperatures far outstrips your own. Thanks to a collection of heatgenerating and insulating mechanisms, he'll be just fine.
You, on the other hand, should probably get back inside.
Hrspro...of what misconduct concerning Rosenthal are you speaking of?
Holy cow...Jessica, posting that once is quite enough! Those of us who do own horses certainly know how well they do in cold temperatures, especially if they are allowed to graze (as nature intended). I've got a barn set up as a 'run in' structure, and I must say that the horses chose to be outside about 99% of the time. Even on those nights it dropped below zero. I would check on them, because I was worried, but they never gave any sign of being cold--no shivering, no huddling together inside the barn, etc. I also have a water trough heater, which works quite well. The horses in the Cutters barn were NOT in danger, although their situation was certainly 'less than ideal', as I have my doubts about the availibility of water, lack of turn out time, and less than adequate stall cleanliness. Part of the problem is that the way Cutter's 'cleans' stalls is very different from how the rest of us clean stalls. Anyway, the news reports were silly, and they will further perpetuate ignorance about horses and horse care. The narration in the helicoptor clip was really bad, in particular.
Absolutely, the media knows nothing about horses and make ignorant comments. But it is completely ludicrous to imply that the City of Chicago orchestrated to take HrsPro down. Do you have any idea what it would take do to something like that? This is not Watergate, nor the Sopranos. A court of law will decide. And if that judge should find you guilty, is that judge in on the conspiracy as well? There is no conspiracy. Stop blaming other people for your problems and stop making up crazy stories.
Jessica, I am thoroughly impressed, and it doesn't happen very often. An excellent scientific presentation on why most of us say, "Horses do far better in the cold than the heat." I also agree with thetruthisouthere regarding the lack of true 'abuse', but questionable access to water and turn out. I would also wonder about hay quality, but I couldn't prove it either way. By the way, Christine, be careful offering access to the ADL website when it seems they are into banning those who oppose their viewpoint. I guess activists can't handle intellectual diversity, they prefer mindless drones who nod their head at everything they are told.
ADL's website is a public website so I'm not quite sure what you mean by "offering access". I was clarifying ADL's stance on the issue since most people don't read the whole forum.
If your referring to the users on the forum this is the ADL stance "...users who are currently using animals for any exploitative purpose, or support animal exploitation in any way, will be immediately warned and/or banned.""...Trolls, spam, flamewars and mob rule via mass joining will not be tolerated...A flamewar is a prolonged exchange of deliberately hostile messages." (from the general section on the forums).
Anyone is more than welcome to have an exchange of ideas with whomever they want but its common practice that if someone comes on to a forum only the create drama then that person is banned.
As far as an activists ability to "handle intellectual diversity" this just shows that you haven't met very many activist, no activist is like another other just like no horse person is like another just like no one person is like another.
Activist involved with ADL come together over a common goal and idea that no animal should be exploited, and is grounded in our own morality and ethics. If everyone who comes together over morality and ethics is a "mindless drone" then your really saying something about almost every human being who participates in a religion or believes in a government for such a reason.
I really hope that the Anonymous who made these statements is not the person I've personally been in contact with.
If "Anonymous" has actually been following ADL's forum they would know that I have personally stood up for exchanges with the opposition to help understanding.
Hi Lori...once again, I am not JC Cutters. CHECK THE IP ADDRESS. It's out of McHenry County. Secondly, no one in their right mind who is about to have a court case over this is going to be posting on a blog. Thirdly, I do know the manager and trust me, she's way too busy right now to be bothering here.
Stop blaming other people for your problems. You did it to yourselves. You did not comply with city regulations and rules set forth by the City of Chicago. Thats the law. Are you blaming me for that?
And once again, I cannot check the IP ADDRESS, because I don't control this blog.
Tell Michelle, I'm sending her my prayers and love. God Bless.
Gold Coast, you sure are a class act!
It's easy to blame others for failures that aren't their fault, especially a situation as awful as this.
I'm in awe that these people continue spinning their lies about what really happened. I'm sure the city has an tight case against them. Afterall, it IS The City of Chicago!!
7thlevelmage: You are absolutely right -- it IS the City of Chicago -- full of "machine" politics, back-room dealings, and "pay-to-play" mentalities.
OMG!!! This isn't Blagojevich for pete's sake. Whats wrong with you people. Are you telling me that the CPD Animal Crimes Unit, Animal Control, and any other VIP involved would confiscate these horses, put their job on the line, without the evidence needed? More than likely there is much evidence that has not been revealed as of yet because there is an ongoing investigation over this carriage company. Have you ever thought of that? Get a clue! Open your eyes! And don't think for one minute that J.C. Cutters didn't break the law.
Let's get this March 12 circus over with so we can all call it a day. I'm bringing cookies.
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